04/12/2005 08:00 AM House COMMUNITY & REGIONAL AFFAIRS
| Audio | Topic |
|---|---|
| Start | |
| HB249 | |
| HB9 | |
| Adjourn |
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
| *+ | HB 9 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| *+ | HB 249 | TELECONFERENCED | |
ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE
HOUSE COMMUNITY AND REGIONAL AFFAIRS STANDING COMMITTEE
April 12, 2005
8:12 a.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Kurt Olson, Co-Chair
Representative Bill Thomas, Co-Chair
Representative Gabrielle LeDoux
Representative Mark Neuman
Representative Sharon Cissna
Representative Woodie Salmon
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Pete Kott
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
HOUSE BILL NO. 249
"An Act relating to enhanced 911 surcharges imposed by a
municipality."
- MOVED CSHB 249(CRA) OUT OF COMMITTEE
HOUSE BILL NO. 9
"An Act establishing the Hydrogen Energy Partnership in the
Department of Commerce, Community, and Economic Development;
requiring the commissioner of commerce, community, and economic
development to seek public and private funding for the
partnership; providing for the contingent repeal of an effective
date; and providing for an effective date."
- MOVED HB 9 OUT OF COMMITTEE
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION
BILL: HB 249
SHORT TITLE: ENHANCED 911 SURCHARGES
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) HAWKER
04/04/05 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
04/04/05 (H) CRA, L&C
04/12/05 (H) CRA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 124
BILL: HB 9
SHORT TITLE: HYDROGEN ENERGY RESEARCH PROGRAM
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) CRAWFORD
01/10/05 (H) PREFILE RELEASED 12/30/04
01/10/05 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
01/10/05 (H) CRA, RES, FIN
04/12/05 (H) CRA AT 8:00 AM CAPITOL 124
WITNESS REGISTER
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE HAWKER
Alaska State Legislature
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified as the sponsor of HB 249.
LINDA FREED, City Manager
City of Kodiak
Kodiak, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Encouraged the committee to move HB 249
forward.
DAVID GIBBS, Emergency Manager
Kenai Peninsula Borough
Kenai, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: During discussion of HB 249, testified that
the Kenai Peninsula Borough supports an increase in the enhanced
911 surcharge.
CHUCK KOPP, Chair
Alaska Chapter of the National Emergency Number Association;
Chief, Kenai Police Department
Kenai, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 249.
TIM ROGERS
Alaska Municipal League
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 249.
ROB HEUN, Deputy Chief Administration
Anchorage Police Department
Municipality of Anchorage
Anchorage, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 249.
BILL DOLITTLE, Project Manager for 911 Program
Municipality of Anchorage
Anchorage, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: During the discussion of HB 249, discussed
the dramatic impact of wireless phones, particularly on
emergency services.
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HOLM
Alaska State Legislature
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: As the sponsor of HB 74, urged the
committee to support HB 249.
REPRESENTATIVE HARRY CRAWFORD
Alaska State Legislature
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Spoke as the sponsor of HB 9.
CARYL MCCONKIE, Development Manager
Office of Economic Development
Department of Commerce, Community, & Economic Development
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified that DCCED has no position on HB
9.
DAVID LOCKARD, Technical Engineer II
Alaska Industrial Development & Export Authority (AIDEA) and
Alaska Energy Authority (AEA)
Department of Commerce, Community, & Economic Development
(No address provided)
POSITION STATEMENT: During discussion of HB 9, answered
questions.
SARA FISHER-GOAD
Alaska Industrial Development & Export Authority (AIDEA) and
Alaska Energy Authority (AEA)
Department of Commerce, Community, & Economic Development
(No address provided)
POSITION STATEMENT: During discussion of HB 9, answered
questions.
BILL LEIGHTY, Director
The Leighty Foundation
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: During discussion of HB 9, discussed
hydrogen as a storage unit and transmission medium for a
renewable source of energy.
ACTION NARRATIVE
CO-CHAIR BILL THOMAS called the House Community and Regional
Affairs Standing Committee meeting to order at 8:12:16 AM.
Representatives Olson, Thomas, LeDoux, Neuman, Cissna, and
Salmon were present at the call to order.
HB 249-ENHANCED 911 SURCHARGES
CO-CHAIR THOMAS announced that the first order of business would
be HOUSE BILL NO. 249, "An Act relating to enhanced 911
surcharges imposed by a municipality."
8:12:45 AM
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE HAWKER, Alaska State Legislature, Sponsor,
explained that HB 74 was introduced early in the session by
Representative Holm. However, Representative Holm ultimately
decided not to continue as prime sponsor of HB 74, and therefore
Representative Hawker introduced HB 249 to continue the effort.
He further explained that HB 249 was introduced in cooperation
with the co-chairs of the House Community and Regional Affairs
Standing Committee and is in essence the committee substitute
(CS) that was going to be utilized for HB 74.
8:14:28 AM
CO-CHAIR OLSON moved to adopt CSHB 249, Version 24-LS0853\G,
Cook, 4/11/05, as the working document. There being no
objection, Version G was before the committee.
8:14:45 AM
REPRESENTATIVE NEUMAN said that he supports enhanced 911, but
expressed concern with the $2.00 surcharge on each line that can
increase beyond the $2.00. He also expressed concern with
regard to the lack of ability to determine the location of 911
calls made via cell phones. Furthermore, a large burden is
placed on those organizations with multiple lines, such as
schools and businesses. Representative Neuman related his
concern with regard to the various lines coming in to homes that
would each have a surcharge for enhanced 911 services.
REPRESENTATIVE HAWKER highlighted that this legislation is about
safer communities and saving lives, which requires a certain
capital investment and a sustained funding source. When one
dials 911, there is the expectation that a human being will
answer to provide the critical services. He related an incident
in his district in which an individual was lying on the ground
bleeding from a gun shot wound. Although the individual dialed
911, the caller couldn't be identified [or located]. This
legislation would provide the resources that would move Alaska
forward with the technology necessary to respond to such
emergencies. With regard to the $2.00 surcharge, the
legislation specifies that the surcharge "may not exceed $2.00".
Representative Hawker stressed that he would like to provide as
much latitude on the level of the surcharge to those making
decisions through local elected representatives. This
legislation, he opined, strikes a reasonable balance between
providing the necessary public services to save lives, without
the risk of a runaway government and excessive taxation.
8:20:32 AM
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX asked if it's true that even with enhanced
911 service, the location of a cell phone call can't be
pinpointed.
REPRESENTATIVE HAWKER deferred to the technology experts.
8:21:09 AM
REPRESENTATIVE NEUMAN related his understanding that there is
already a 911 system in which the location of the house [from
which the line is billed] can be identified.
REPRESENTATIVE HAWKER agreed, but noted that in some areas of
the state such services aren't available, although it's a
federal mandate.
REPRESENTATIVE NEUMAN said that most of the larger rural areas
already have enhanced 911 services. He reminded everyone to
call telephone companies to revise the directions to one's
house. He pointed out that the legislation specifies that a
borough must share the revenue with the other cities within it,
but it doesn't specify a rate. He expressed concern with regard
to global positioning systems (GPS) in telephones due to that
providing the ability to track an individual's whereabouts.
REPRESENTATIVE HAWKER emphasized that this legislation provides
the maximum respect for local control and self determination.
The allocations between a borough and its communities are to be
determined by the borough and those communities. He related his
discomfort with dictating, at the state level, how communities
should handle a specific negotiation. With regard to the
technology, Representative Hawker said that it doesn't become a
bug in your pocket because the locator would only be triggered
when necessary.
8:24:18 AM
REPRESENTATIVE NEUMAN recalled hearing testimony in opposition
to HB 249 from AT&T representatives who felt less people would
purchase less cell phones.
REPRESENTATIVE HAWKER related that he has been working for two
years with phone companies to allay concerns. He noted that he
has a letter dated February 24, 2005, to Senator Bunde, who is
carrying the companion Senate legislation. From the
aforementioned letter he read the following: "That AT&T has
been following the issue of enhanced surcharges with interest
and concern since last year. That the Senate substitute for
their bill with the $2.00 per line ceiling and provisions to
exceed that with voter approval represents a fair compromise."
Representative Hawker acknowledged that the phone companies are
largely concerned with regard to being agents collecting the fee
and with regard to there being an unlimited ceiling. He
reiterated that he has been working with the industry to
accommodate those concerns.
REPRESENTATIVE NEUMAN said that perhaps he was thinking of
another carrier, but highlighted that there isn't unanimous
support of this.
8:26:17 AM
CO-CHAIR OLSON recalled that the concern was related to HB 74
when the surcharge was originally set at $5.00. He asked if
anyone has complained regarding the $.75 surcharge.
REPRESENTATIVE HAWKER replied no.
8:26:48 AM
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX asked if this legislation will impact
areas of the state that currently don't have 911 service.
REPRESENTATIVE HAWKER specified that HB 249 doesn't allow the
imposition of surcharges where no service is provided.
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX further asked if HB 249 would impact
whether there will be services provided in those areas [which
don't currently receive such services].
REPRESENTATIVE HAWKER opined that this legislation could be
interpreted as a vehicle in which local telephone companies
could work with local municipalities to obtain 911 service.
However, there are a number of significant issues which must be
overcome, such as the first responder may not be located in the
community where the crisis is occurring. Representative Hawker
expressed the need to continue to work on providing better
access to public safety services.
8:28:38 AM
REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA expressed her belief that "the
municipality" language, is critical because it is then a local
choice with regard to what may be imposed. She asked whether
this legislation addresses multiple lines charged to one billing
address, and also asked if the surcharge would be charged to
each line.
REPRESENTATIVE HAWKER referred to the language [on page 1, lines
10-11], which says "access lines that provide telephone service
to wire line telephones in the area". He opined that the intent
was to provide service such that the individual telephone in a
large office building could be located rather than where the
telephone switch is located, which may be a completely different
building.
8:31:57 AM
CO-CHAIR THOMAS related an accident in Haines last year in which
the 911 call was routed to Juneau. Unfortunately, it took about
an hour and a half to determine [the location of the caller] and
in the meantime, the individual who was only a few miles from
[Haines proper] died.
REPRESENTATIVE HAWKER requested that everyone keep in mind that
this legislation is first and foremost about saving lives. He
characterized HB 249 as cornerstone legislation from which the
legislature makes a commitment to build emergency response
services and provide access to them.
8:34:29 AM
LINDA FREED, City Manager, City of Kodiak, said HB 249 is very
important to municipalities. She agreed that this legislation
is a good start in addressing all of the complexities of
enhanced 911 and emergency response systems in the state. Ms.
Freed noted that the language on page 2, lines 18-20, is a good
addition to the legislation. In fact, the City of Kodiak and
the Kodiak Island Borough have already created a local agreement
regarding how the revenues [from the proposed surcharge] will be
shared. Ms. Freed noted her agreement with Representative
Hawker that HB 249 should be a local option in order for the
local communities to implement the best system for their
community. Ms. Freed encouraged the committee to move HB 249
forward.
8:36:22 AM
REPRESENTATIVE NEUMAN asked whether [Kodiak] would use the
entire $2.00 surcharge or less.
MS. FREED opined that it's unlikely that Kodiak would increase
its surcharge from the $.75 until there is a review as to the
equipment necessary for cell phone service. The cell phone
issue isn't as compelling in Kodiak as for those communities on
the road system. She further opined that funds need to be
available for all of the emergency dispatch response portion of
the system, not just for the enhanced 911 system. If those
funds could be used for greater emergency dispatch, then
[Kodiak] would review increasing the fee. The surcharge could
also be increased in order to support communities without 911
service.
8:38:46 AM
DAVID GIBBS, Emergency Manager, Kenai Peninsula Borough, stated
that the Kenai Peninsula Borough supports an increase in the
enhanced 911 surcharge. He related that the borough is at a
crossroads in terms of implementing the wireless Phase I and II
enhanced 911 services, which is required by the Federal
Communications Commission (FCC), that include the technology
that provides the location of a cell phone caller. Mr. Gibbs
agreed with the earlier characterization of HB 249 as a good
start, although it doesn't address all the enhanced 911 issues.
He expressed concern with the mechanism by which the enhanced
911 surcharge revenue would be shared with other areas within
the enhanced 911 service area. He highlighted that the Kenai
Peninsula Borough is responsible for many of the basic costs,
such as dedicated line charges, automatic location
identification (ALI) data base maintenance charges, hardware and
software for call taking equipment as well as many of the
addressing responsibilities. Mr. Gibbs said [the Kenai
Peninsula Borough] would be more supportive of the language [on
page 2, lines 18-20] if the basic costs could be separated,
addressed first, and the remaining revenue be divided amongst
the cities. He characterized the aforementioned as a local
decision. In conclusion, Mr. Gibbs encouraged the committee to
keep working on this legislation.
8:41:00 AM
REPRESENTATIVE NEUMAN asked if the Kenai Peninsula Borough has
adequate 911 location abilities.
MR. GIBBS answered that it's the case for wire lines, but [the
borough] hasn't been able to afford the technology that would
enable it to implement Phase I and II enhanced 911 for wireless
phones.
8:42:01 AM
CHUCK KOPP, Chair, Alaska Chapter of the National Emergency
Number Association (NENA); Chief, Kenai Police Department, noted
his support of HB 249 because the $2.00 surcharge allows for
program expenditure and access to technology. Most agencies
providing 911 program budget estimates haven't factored in the
cost of wireless 911 or amended the agreements necessary to
maintain ALI databases. With regard to the revenue sharing
language, it's good language in that boroughs and municipalities
can work on an individual program to determine the specifics of
the program.
8:44:44 AM
TIM ROGERS, Alaska Municipal League, testified in support of HB
249, which he characterized as a fair compromise. Mr. Rogers
highlighted that HB 249 doesn't make local governments whole for
the cost of operating an enhanced 911 system. Furthermore, the
legislation doesn't expand the services for which the surcharge
can be used. The surcharge may only be used to pay for
equipment and operation costs of an enhanced 911 public safety
answering point (PSAP), as defined in statute. He pointed out
that the surcharge can't be used to pay for ambulances or other
dispatch services, only enhanced 911 services as currently
defined in the law. Mr. Rogers also highlighted that HB 249
does help offset the loss of revenues previously provided by the
state. As mentioned earlier, HB 249 doesn't assess a fee for
those who don't receive enhanced 911 services in rural areas and
may only be implemented if the local municipality provides
enhanced 911 service. Mr. Rogers informed the committee that
Nome is assessing an enhanced 911 surcharge of $.75 and is
utilizing that surcharge to help acquire the equipment to
provide enhanced 911 services.
8:47:29 AM
ROB HEUN, Deputy Chief Administration, Anchorage Police
Department, Municipality of Anchorage, testified in support of
HB 249. Although he didn't believe that Anchorage would reach
the $2.00 surcharge for some time, he said that Anchorage has
experienced how expensive testing and implementation of enhanced
911 services is. For example, the cost of the address database
maintenance, which reconciles location with telephone numbers,
has increased four-fold since the project began. He informed
the committee that currently 51 percent of [Anchorage's] 250,000
911 calls per year are wireless calls. Therefore, the increased
mapping capabilities for cell phone callers being developed is
significant. This is a public safety issue, which will generate
costs. As a manager of first responders, he said it's his
responsibility to justify those costs to the local government.
In conclusion, Mr. Heun opined that when there is a 911 call,
the desire is to have a first responder arrive efficiently and
effectively.
8:49:28 AM
REPRESENTATIVE NEUMAN inquired as to how the current 911 calls
received from cell phones are located.
MR. HEUN said that currently [the technology] can't locate the
location of a 911 call from a cell phone. However, there would
be an attempt to call back the caller because there would be a
call-back number. Mr. Heun informed the committee that the
[cell phone] industry is moving toward placing locator chips in
cell phones and the [dispatch center] technology has to move
forward as well. He specified that the location ability will
only occur when 911 is dialed.
REPRESENTATIVE NEUMAN opined that the cart seems to be placed
before the horse with HB 249. He questioned how many people
have cell phones with GPS capabilities.
MR. HEUN related his understanding that the industry has said
the market is there for cell phones with [locator capabilities].
In fact, Alaska Communications Systems is making great strides
to market cell phones with enhanced 911 capabilities.
8:51:48 AM
REPRESENTATIVE HAWKER explained, in regard to the technology
that may be implemented to identify the location of cell phone
users, that one device is a locator chip in individual headsets.
However, alternate technology using triangulation from multiple
cell phone towers is also being developed.
MR. HEUN interjected that the FCC has mandated that the industry
has to market cell phones that are Phase II [compliant and thus
will have the ability to locate 911 calls from cell phones].
8:52:51 AM
REPRESENTATIVE NEUMAN asked if the FCC [regulations] have any
language regarding keeping the location of cell phone users
private [when not calling 911].
MR. HEUN clarified that the GPS is only activated when 911 is
called.
8:53:49 AM
BILL DOLITTLE, Project Manager for 911 Program, Municipality of
Anchorage, opined that everyone loves cell phones, which has
dramatically impacted emergency response services. Effectively,
there has been an erosion in the capability of first responders
to find those in need. The FCC has spent nearly a decade
addressing the aforementioned and have defined Phase I and II
wireless capability. He noted that there are costs on various
sides of the technology. The carriers are working diligently
because they are mandated by the FCC to transition to this new
technology. In fact, a recent FCC ruling for waivers of smaller
carriers in rural areas didn't provide much of a waiver at all
but rather found a higher need for wireless location capability
in rural areas. He recalled a recent conference in which a U.S.
Coast Guard representative specified that nearly 50 percent of
the calls it receives for assistance come from cell phones
rather than VHF radio. Furthermore, there is a net increase in
calls for an incident, which is an operational impact on
dispatch centers that have to answer each call.
MR. DOLITTLE turned to the program costs, and explained that the
absolute value of the surcharge is based on the program costs of
each jurisdiction. Some of the program costs are based on
areawide costs, which need to be paid for regardless of the
community, as well as PSAP specific costs. For example, when
Anchorage implemented the 911 upgrade and pursued the wireless
initiative, the municipality's costs went from an approximately
$300,000 contract to an over $1 million contract for services.
Furthermore, the database management costs have increased, which
leads to the base of the surcharge. The telephone number
integrator will be paid $.21 a record regardless of the type of
record, and it's impossible to reasonably aggregate those costs.
He reiterated that [the municipality] will pay $.21 a record for
every telephone number to be included in the database. He
explained that the allocation of surcharges by access line is
based on about 40 years of national experience with 911 programs
and [the current system] has been found to be a way to equitably
allocate those costs.
8:58:00 AM
REPRESENTATIVE NEUMAN asked if the aforementioned $0.21 covers
the current costs [of the Municipality of Anchorage's 911
program].
MR. DOOLITTLE replied no, and clarified that the ALI database is
just a component of the cost of the program. He noted that in a
white paper published last year about 20-30 different costs for
the startup and maintenance of the program were identified.
8:58:40 AM
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX asked if the references to "wireless
telephones" only means "cell phones" or does it include "SAT
phones" as well.
MR. DOLITTLE answered that the costs for which the surcharge is
being collected would be the costs for wire lines and wireless
lines for billing addresses within that jurisdiction's boundary.
He informed the committee that the FCC has a separate proceeding
for SAT phones. The FCC's most recent directive is that the
satellite companies had to provide a 911 call-taking center
because of the difficulty in locating SAT phones on the planet.
9:00:14 AM
REPRESENTATIVE NEUMAN inquired as to the sponsor's thoughts on
amending the legislation such that [the surcharge] didn't
include lines that aren't phones.
REPRESENTATIVE HAWKER reiterated earlier testimony that the
costs associated with implementing a [911] system are generated
by the existence of the individual. Therefore, he expressed the
need to consider matching the costs and expenses with the
proposal. Furthermore, there is technology that combines voice
and fax systems. He opined that it would be very difficult to
enforce and determine which lines are actually phone lines. To
accomplish the aforementioned and place it in statute, it would
require disclosure, which results in an invasive government.
Therefore, using the broadest base of lines would provide the
ability to maintain a minimal cost per individual line.
Although business and industry would bear a large cost where
there are a number of lines that would be impacted by this
proposal, the benefit outweighs the cost, he opined. Therefore,
Representative Hawker hesitated to go forward with
Representative Neuman's suggestion.
9:03:59 AM
REPRESENTATIVE NEUMAN asked if the sponsor has spoken with any
businesses with multiple lines.
REPRESENTATIVE HAWKER replied yes, over the course of the last
two years. He recalled that [last year] the industry was
concerned with the unlimited surcharge in former legislation.
However, the problem has been addressed by including language
that specifically limits the application of the funds to enhance
the 911 systems and implementing a $2.00 cap, which provides
assurance to the business community that this legislation could
not be used by a community as a surcharge over it's corporate
constituents.
9:05:27 AM
CO-CHAIR THOMAS closed public testimony.
9:05:33 AM
REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA pointed out that Alaska is one of the
leaders in accidental death and injury because of the remote
nature of things in Alaska. She highlighted the importance of
locating people and doing so in a timely fashion. She alluded
that GPS in cell phones could be beneficial for emergency
situations because every moment is critical. She opined that
the cell phones would still have autonomy until 911 is dialed.
9:08:03 AM
REPRESENTATIVE NEUMAN highlighted that emergency locator beacons
could also be used which are cheaper than GPS mechanisms. He
expressed concern with the $2.00 surcharge on each line
including faxes and Internet, especially in locations with
multiple lines, because there's a potential to significantly
increase monthly phone bills. He opined that large businesses,
including the state, have thousands of lines so this legislation
is problematic.
9:10:27 AM
CO-CHAIR THOMAS commented that commercial fishermen could have a
greater chance at survival if they have cell phones [with GPS]
that verify their exact lactation. This is a way to save lives,
he said.
9:11:34 AM
REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA related that currently Anchorage charges
$0.75 and it may not charge $2.00 for quite some time.
REPRESENTATIVE NEUMAN replied that [municipalities] wouldn't ask
for the [surcharge] if they didn't want it.
9:12:07 AM
REPRESENTATIVE JIM HOLM, Alaska State Legislature, sponsor of HB
74, related this legislation does have potential for abuse. He
relayed that the city of Fairbanks covers $4.5 million a year to
provide service to all the outlying boroughs. He offered that
businesses with multiple lines pay extra, however, the surcharge
is an insignificant expenditure in the event that it saves
lives. He opined that the legislature never set policies
implementing the cost of local services, and therefore statewide
policy makers should not set limits [or a cap] on what a
business [charges for] services rendered. He urged the
committee to support HB 249.
9:14:41 AM
REPRESENTATIVE HAWKER stated that this legislation is needed for
the purposes of providing responsible public safety services in
Alaska.
REPRESENTATIVE NEUMAN said that he doesn't object to enhancing
911 services, but he has a problem with imposing the surcharge
to fax and Internet lines. He opined that a company with 100
employees would have a phone bill of approximately [$2,00] a
month.
9:16:05 AM
CO-CHAIR OLSON moved to report CSHB 249, Version G, out of
committee with individual recommendations and the accompanying
fiscal notes. There being no objection, CSHB 249(CRA) was
reported from the House Community and Regional Affairs Standing
Committee.
HB 9-HYDROGEN ENERGY RESEARCH PROGRAM
CO-CHAIR THOMAS announced that the final order of business would
be HOUSE BILL NO. 9, "An Act establishing the Hydrogen Energy
Partnership in the Department of Commerce, Community, and
Economic Development; requiring the commissioner of commerce,
community, and economic development to seek public and private
funding for the partnership; providing for the contingent repeal
of an effective date; and providing for an effective date."
9:17:27 AM
REPRESENTATIVE HARRY CRAWFORD, Alaska State Legislature,
sponsor, explained that HB 9 would establish a hydrogen energy
partnership in order to provide a repository for federal funds
and industry funds that would go toward hydrogen energy research
and development. He further explained that stranded alternative
energy sources, such as wind or tidal energy, can be utilized
and moved where necessary [through hydrogen], which he
characterized as a storage bank. Alaska is fortunate in that it
has large fossil fuel resources as well as alternative energy
sources. He opined that the next Prudhoe Bay will be developing
Alaska's hydrogen fuel sources. This legislations provides a
way in which to start the aforementioned process.
9:19:54 AM
REPRESENTATIVE NEUMAN acknowledged the benefits of hydrogen
energy, but opined that it's relatively expensive to develop at
this time. He asked if the sponsor has a business plan
specifying the market, the profit margin, et cetera.
Representative Neuman noted his support for the development of
alternative energy sources, but stated that there are many
questions [to be answered].
REPRESENTATIVE CRAWFORD agreed that there are many questions,
but pointed out that HB 9 provides a way to begin to answer
them. He noted that a number of studies are already occurring.
For instance, there has been a proposal for a demonstration
project at the Island of Akutan where there are geothermal
resources. If the Island of Akutan built a 10-15 megawatt unit
to be powered by geothermal resources, it would have excess
power for the portion of the year in which the fish processing
plant isn't in operation. Representative Crawford specified
that one of the [goals] is to produce hydrogen through an
electrolysis process and then ship that hydrogen to small
villages throughout Western Alaska in order to power fuel cells.
He noted that much of this is in the concept stage, and this
legislation provides a place where concepts can be taken in
order to develop into an actual project.
9:23:17 AM
REPRESENTATIVE NEUMAN expressed concern with the expense of
this. He suggested that another part of the process is
reviewing competing energy sources. He highlighted that those
in Galena are reviewing the possibility of constructing a small
nuclear plant for Western Alaska. He inquired as to what other
concepts are being reviewed beyond hydrogen.
REPRESENTATIVE CRAWFORD explained that these aren't competing
energy sources because hydrogen dovetails with all the
alternative energy sources. He explained that with wind, for
example, a lot of electricity can be produced when the wind is
blowing. Therefore, there needs to be a way to store the excess
energy to be able to use it during times when there is no wind.
Hydrogen would be a way to store the aforementioned wind energy
until it's needed.
9:25:39 AM
REPRESENTATIVE NEUMAN asked then if electrical energy can be
stored by attaching it to a hydrogen molecule.
REPRESENTATIVE CRAWFORD replied no. He explained that the
alternative energy is used to turn water into hydrogen and then
the hydrogen is stored to be burned when necessary.
REPRESENTATIVE NEUMAN pointed out that there are already
batteries that store [energy] generated by wind.
REPRESENTATIVE CRAWFORD acknowledged that batteries help take
some of the ups and downs out of wind power. However, the large
amounts of power that could be generated [by alternative energy
sources such as wind] can't be stored [in batteries]. However,
unlimited amounts of energy can be stored in hydrogen if there
are tanks to store the hydrogen.
9:27:18 AM
CARYL MCCONKIE, Development Manager, Office of Economic
Development, Department of Commerce, Community, & Economic
Development (DCCED), informed the committee that the department
takes no position on HB 9 because it's a policy call for the
legislature. She related her understanding that [the Office of
Economic Development] would be responsible for creating a new
program. Although [the department] doesn't have the staff
resources to actively seek funding for this legislation, in the
past the industry has come forward with support for new
programs. Furthermore, [the Office of Economic Development]
works closely with the Alaska Travel Industry Association, which
provides private sector funding for partnership programs with
the state. At the time [the department] would be able to
receive statutorily designated program receipts, it would move
forward with this program.
9:28:55 AM
REPRESENTATIVE NEUMAN inquired as to how hydrogen energy
compares to other alternative energy sources.
MS. MCCONKIE deferred to staff from the Alaska Energy Authority.
9:30:07 AM
DAVID LOCKARD, Technical Engineer II, Alaska Industrial
Development & Export Authority (AIDEA) and Alaska Energy
Authority (AEA), Department of Commerce, Community, & Economic
Development (DCCED), reminded the committee that hydrogen is not
a source of energy but rather is a way to store energy. The
various alternative energy forms could be used to provide energy
and be stored in hydrogen for use at a later date.
9:30:55 AM
REPRESENTATIVE NEUMAN restated his earlier question as to how
alternative energy sources, over the course of the next 20 or so
years, would compare. He inquired as to how the experts see the
development and questioned whether the funds put forth for this
would be better spent on other types of alternative energy.
MS. MCCONKIE said that she constantly weighs such questions when
deciding program funding. With respect to the statutorily
designated receipts for this, she envisioned that would come
from private sector sources, or elsewhere specifically
interested in this program. Therefore, she viewed the situation
as being demand driven.
9:32:24 AM
SARA FISHER-GOAD, Alaska Industrial Development & Export
Authority (AIDEA) and Alaska Energy Authority (AEA), Department
of Commerce, Community, & Economic Development (DCCED), related
her understanding that that the initial funding would come from
private sources available to start the program. She thought
that many of Representative Neuman's questions would be answered
through the energy partnership, specifically in regard to where
hydrogen would fit in the long-term planning for alternatives to
diesel fuel.
9:33:19 AM
REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA highlighted that there has been a history
of trying to find alternatives to existing energy sources.
Therefore, she questioned how HB 9 furthers the existing efforts
in regard to alternative energy sources.
MS. FISHER-GOAD related her understanding that the intent of the
partnership is to develop a process and program to answer
questions regarding how hydrogen would fit in with other
potential alternative energy sources and any cost benefit that
would result. Section 2 of the legislation requires reporting
to the legislature, which would seem to afford an annual
dialogue with the legislature regarding where hydrogen would fit
in with other alternative energy programs.
9:35:43 AM
REPRESENTATIVE CRAWFORD specified that hydrogen needs to be
viewed as a storage unit rather than an alternative energy
source itself. Hydrogen isn't in competition with [alternative
energy sources]. He posed a situation in which a 200 megawatt
coal plant is built in the Interior. Running the coal plant at
peak efficiency isn't required all the time. However, if it's
run at 40-50 percent efficiency, its benefit is lost.
Therefore, if the coal plant is hooked to a hydrogen system, it
could run at peak efficiency all the time and produce hydrogen
as a byproduct, which would save costs all around. In fact,
[the consumer's] energy costs would be lowered as well.
Representative Crawford specified that the idea behind this
partnership is to allow private industry and electric utilities
to put in money and attract matching federal funds. He noted
that President Bush has allocated a couple of billion dollars
for hydrogen research and development. Hawaii is now using
tidal and geothermal resources to make hydrogen. Representative
Crawford opined that this legislation is about Alaska's future.
He further opined that hydrogen, a clean burning and renewable
fuel, is the fuel of the future.
9:39:07 AM
REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA related her understanding that HB 9 is
augmenting the pioneering efforts that have occurred in the Bush
with alternative energy sources, and it needs to be in place in
addition to those other efforts.
REPRESENTATIVE CRAWFORD agreed, reiterating that hydrogen
enhances the efforts of alternative energy sources because it
offers a manner in which to store and transport those
alternative energy sources.
9:40:32 AM
BILL LEIGHTY, Director, The Leighty Foundation, informed the
committee that he is an electrical engineer. He further
informed the committee that in the last four years he has
concentrated on research papers regarding the problem of
bringing large-scale, stranded, renewable energy resources to
distant markets. The problem of transporting the vast winds of
the Great Plains was the beginning. The Leighty Foundation's
first paper, which was co-funded with the Energy Foundation,
compared electricity transmission to hydrogen pipeline
transmission for moving the energy from a 4,000 megawatt wind
plant 1,000 miles. He explained that electricity comes off the
bottom of a wind generator and a high voltage DC transmission
line could be built to move the energy. However, when the wind
stops blowing, the line is dead. Even in the best of
circumstances, the capacity of wind generation is only about 40
percent. In other words, over a year's time, a wind generation
plant would only produce about 40 percent of the amount of
energy it would've produced had it operated at full output the
entire year. Therefore, it results in a large stranded
resource. He posed the question as to whether a hydrogen
pipeline would be better.
MR. LEIGHTY echoed the sponsor's testimony regarding the
importance for everyone understanding that hydrogen is only a
storage and transmission medium for a renewable source of
energy. He said that humanity's goal is have an energy system
on earth that is based on benign energy sources, and therefore
one should look forward long term for a sustainable energy
source. The question is how to get [a sustainable energy
source] to market. Mr. Leighty noted that the Japanese have
been co-authors of many of the papers on which he has been
working over the last several years. Japan is interested in
building a large natural gas pipeline transmission system from
the Russian far east to Japan. He noted that this pipeline
system would be four times as big as the Alaska natural gas
line. The Japanese are questioning whether the proposed gas
pipeline should be built out of hydrogen-capable line pipe so
that when natural gas is depleted, renewable source hydrogen can
be transmitted via the same pipeline to Japan. Unfortunately,
hydrogen is a terrible fuel with very low energy density by
volume. For example, hydrogen fuel cars require hydrogen to be
stored at a high psi in order to place enough hydrogen in the
vehicle for a 300-mile range, which Americans seem to require in
order to avoid going to the gas station more than once a week.
9:46:05 AM
MR. LEIGHTY concluded by noting his support for HB 9 and its use
of the partnership concept. He then noted that the proposal
embodied in HB 9 is closely related to the International
Partnership for the Hydrogen Economy launched by the Bush
Administration. The International Partnership of Hydrogen, a
large task requiring the cooperation of many countries, has
resulted in 12 nations plus the European union coming together
in partnership. Although there is no funding, the
[organization] offers the ability to attract such from public
and private sources. This is similar to what is proposed in HB
9 and could result in research and development specific to
peculiarities in Alaska. He suggested that opportunities that
may arise may relate to storage and transmission of large-scale
renewable energy resources over long distances. He mentioned
the need for seasonal-scale storage, which may be an opportunity
for Alaska.
9:49:30 AM
REPRESENTATIVE SALMON inquired as to the amount of line loss
that will occur with hydrogen.
MR. LEIGHTY said that The Leighty Foundation's paper that will
be presented at the 2005 Energy Conference addresses this
question regarding how far hydrogen can be transported via a
pipeline before a compressor station is necessary. He informed
the committee that hydrogen could be transported via a pipeline
up to 1,000 miles with no compressors at the input or at the
midline. Although the pressure will decrease from 1,500 psi at
the source to 500 psi at the destination, it's an acceptable
pressure loss. However, he noted that high pressure
electorlyzers are becoming available such that electricity is
put in and hydrogen comes out because the water molecule is
split due to the pressure. In response to Representative
Neuman's earlier question regarding competition, Mr. Leighty
said that he reviewed the problem of moving large-scale wind
energy over a long distance via pipelines. The Leighty
Foundation's calculations specify that [the cost of the hydrogen
at its destination] is $1.50-$2.50 per kilogram. He informed
the committee that a kilogram of hydrogen has approximately the
same energy content as 1 gallon of gasoline. However, an owner
of a hydrogen fuel cell electric car would provide twice as many
vehicle miles per kilogram of hydrogen than a gallon of gasoline
because a fuel cell is more efficient.
9:52:30 AM
MR. LEIGHTY showed the committee a demonstrator to illustrate
how a renewable source of energy is stored in hydrogen to
produce/transform the energy into electricity. He specified
that the demonstrator highlights that one must first have an
energy source in which to make the hydrogen, then the hydrogen
can be stored, and then returned into electricity [when
necessary].
9:54:32 AM
REPRESENTATIVE NEUMAN turned to the matter of transporting
hydrogen in Alaska. He highlighted that energy can only change
form, and every time that it changes form it loses energy.
Therefore, he inquired as to how the transport of energy is
impacted by Alaska's extreme temperatures.
MR. LEIGHTY explained that transporting hydrogen through a
pipeline is similar to transporting natural gas through a
pipeline. Therefore, if natural gas can be transported via a
pipeline at 40 below zero, so can hydrogen. The big difference
and disadvantage, he noted, is that hydrogen is one-third the
energy density of natural gas and thus three times as many
standard cubic feet of hydrogen are used to obtain the same
amount of energy at the destination point as would be achieved
with natural gas.
9:56:14 AM
MR. LEIGHTY offered three cautions in regard to HB 9. First,
the transmission of hydrogen will always be very costly. He
informed the committee that his Japanese co-authors were bold
and drew a pipeline down the Alaska Peninsula, across the
Aleutian Islands to Kamchatku, down the Sakhalin to the Home
Islands, with wind generators the entire length. He noted that
the Bering Sea is one of the windiest places on earth. Perhaps,
the future for Alaska is to have sea-born wind generators making
hydrogen and placing it in the sub-sea pipeline to send to
California or Japan.
9:57:23 AM
REPRESENTATIVE SALMON inquired as to how much energy could be
held in a large-scale pipeline.
MR. LEIGHTY answered that a 36-inch diameter pipeline from North
Dakota to Chicago is 1,000 miles. In such a pipeline, if the
pipeline is packed to 1,000 psi, it stores 120,000 megawatt
hours, which is 120 gigawatt hours of energy in the form of
compressed hydrogen gas. Compressed hydrogen gas can be
converted back to electricity or fuel. In further response to
Representative Salmon, Mr. Leighty confirmed that a larger pipe,
with higher pressure, provides more storage. However, he
reminded the committee that in the North Dakota to Chicago
scenario if the alternative energy source, wind for example,
isn't available for four days and the customers in Chicago have
drawn the pipeline down, there will be a need for seasonal
scale, inexpensive, geologic storage. The aforementioned could
be the niche in which Alaska could offer pioneering research and
development. He noted that at Stanford University the Global
Climate and Energy Project is looking for game changing
technology advancements. "And that's the kind of thing that
they might be interested in doing here. It might be a way that
HB 9 can be made to work," he remarked.
9:59:08 AM
MR. LEIGHTY cautioned the [legislature] not to look at [HB 9] as
"end-running" the federal appropriation process to get something
earmarked for a project in Alaska.
10:00:00 AM
REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA moved to report HB 9 out of committee with
individual recommendations and the accompanying fiscal notes.
There being no objection, HB 9 was reported out of the House
Community and Regional Affairs Standing Committee.
ADJOURNMENT
There being no further business before the committee, the House
Community and Regional Affairs Standing Committee meeting was
adjourned at 10:00:23 AM.
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